The APR
I've received several e-mails about today's story about UC's APR numbers and the gist of them some of them is who cares about the APR numbers? Bring back Huggins so the Bearcats can start winning again. That kind of thinking misses the point.
With the advent of the APR, it's no longer possible to field a team without concern for academics. One of the most interesting things that compliance director Maggie McKinley said in that story is that Mick Cronin faces a rebuilding job on two fronts - academic and athletic. Obviously, the academic rebuilding had to be the top priority because if it wasn't, the program would have been penalized even further and on-court success would have postponed even further.
As I've said before, I'm not here to defend Cronin. I don't know if he's the man to get the program back to where it was. We'll know in the next few years. In fact, I don't know if it will ever get back to where it was. Cronin did not create this mess. In my opinion, it was created by Bob Huggins, Andy Kennedy and to a lesser extent Nancy Zimpher because of the way she handled Huggins' dismissal. Look at some of the players that were signed in the last few years of Huggins-Kennedy: Souleymane, Muhammad, Whaley, Bright, etc.
Regardless of what you think of Cronin as a coach, he was hired to clean up a very bad situation. I doubt if anyone with any interest in staying at UC for the long haul could turned this program into a 20-game winner within two years while competing in the Big East.
30 Comments:
As someone who understands the importance of the APR numbers, I agree that the rebuilding also had to occur on the academic side.
I also agree that this program was completely destroyed and needed to be rebuilt from the ashes. This would be a monumental task for any coach. And yes, we certainly will see in the next two years whether Cronin can get the job done and restore UC basketball to national prominence again.
Where I do disagree is where the primary blame is being placed. To be sure, Huggins has his share of the blame. But, in my opinion, the mishandling of his dismissal and the extremely poor timing of it lies squarely at the feet of Nancy Zimpher.
And why is there no mention of the Board of Trustees. Zimpher could have never done what she did without the expressed, or at the very least tacit, approval of the BOT.
Now, as a result, we've gone from a big fish in a little (CUSA) pond to a little fish in a big (Big East) pond. In fact, some might even say at this juncture, that we're a minnow.
Is anyone happy with that?
And here's another thought to ponder. If Cronin is not the man for the job, how many years will have been wasted? And then how many more years will it be before we're back?
If one is a fan of UC basketball, it's a scary thought, isn't it?
I think the article was well put together and relevant.
Coach Cronin has an incredible uphill climb on multiple fronts to fix the disaster he inherited. Academic, athletic and a still angry fan base.
One quibble here on the blog page....Souleymane, Muhammad, Whaley, Bright, etc. We don't know what they would have done in the classroom if they had stayed and had someone pressuring them in the classroom.
Also the administration seems to always get a free pass from the local media on the amount of time between firing Coach Huggins and hiring Cronin.
If they had moved quickly there wouldn't have been the huge gulf of time with no recruits and guys leaving.
Killing the program from both the academic and athletic standpoint.
A coach in place might have helped stop that from happening.
Yeah right, try selling us another bill of goods.
St CSA
Well put, Bill.
As great a coach as Huggins is, he recruited far too many marginal students. He also confronted the UC administration his last summer with an ultimatum through his lawyer, after agreeing to stay the 2 years left on his contract. It lead to the disarray of that season. I fail to see where he cared all that much about UC. What he did was classless, considering he was responsible for the hot water he got in. And I say this liking Huggins as a coach.
Kennedy had two guys, White and Muhammed, declared inelegible during the NIT. They quit school and dropped the APR even more. Had UC made the final four in the NIT, they would have been shorthanded and redfaced. I don't blame Andy too much, Thomas left him dangling all season, and the microphone incident was the final example of the buffoonery.
Cronin sometimes looks good, sometimes looks bad as a coach and leader. Last season ended poorly. But yes he has had to work with a lot of loose ends, which are often ignored by fans used to winning. I agree, in two years, if UC is struggling, he is the wrong guy to take the program back to where it was. But he clearly loves UC and hopefully all will work out for the best.
The only reason I didn't mention Zimpher is I'm tired of all the bashing of her. But I certainly give her no pass. I think she had very little grasp of the ins and outs of big time college basketall, and handled Huggin's situation indecisively and naively. Mike Thomas may have been a jerk to Kennedy, but at least he hired Kelly, which led to a great season.
The basketball program is still on shaky ground. A .500 record is about all I expect for next year.
I'm sick of reading the tired old message. No one could have done better at UC than MC. Huggins is to blame. etc.
We'll see how long it takes IU to rebuild after its multiple coach changes, probation, and defections. I'm sure the loyal IU fans will wait 5 years to make a judgment.....Not.
Results matter !!!
Don't really care about anymore excuses or what ifs from Mick Cronin, Bill Koch or the Cincinnati Enquierer. I do not believe that this program was ever in such dire straits as is being presented by these spin doctors. If this program was going down the tubes under Bob Huggins, I have a very hard time believing that they would have been accepted into the Big East under the assumption that they would be a basketball power.
Time to quit making excuses and start putting up wins, a lot of them. Or just write this program off completely.
ST CSA
Why am I not shocked academics doesn't matter to CSA? In case you do not know, academics are very important when it comes to your program's status with the NCAA. Students cannot even begin to participate unless their GPA is 2.5heading into college (correct me if I am wrong Bill). Bill has provided facts that show UC was in trouble and more facts to show they were well below the NCAA standards for graduation rates. Since wins are all you care about -how would you feel if Mick and the boys went 25-5 and didn't qualify to make the NCAA tourney because of poor academics and grad rates? It's evident Mick can never do right in your mind and if this program would have been penalized for poor academics, you would have laid the blame on Mick. Your stance on this situation proves you have an extremem lack of knowledge when it comes to the NCAA and it's STUDENT-athelete requirements.
Here's something that we should all remember to take into consideration when reading about UC in the Enquirer, and particularly about UC basketball. Isn't the editor of the Enquirer a member of the UC Board of Trustees? And if that is the case, can we really expect anything less than a positive spin on UC issues, especially basketball ones?
Please put yourself in any of the reporters/writers' shoes. Wouldn't each of us be a little cautious of stepping too heavily on the toes that provide our bread and butter?
Anyone with half a brain can see that UC basketball is in the gutter, so almost anything that happens is automatically an improvement.
That said, it doesn't mean that I disagree with most of what the other members have stated. I also have tired of all the excuses, in fact, quite a while ago.
Seeing these guys graduate IS a big deal. Congrats to them, the coaching staff, and the administration for helping make it happen.
Time will tell how the fans of UC will continue to support this effort.
Will the support grow with 11 - 15 wins a year and 100% graduation? Or will it grow with 20 wins a year and let's say 75% graduation?
Now that the program is back on solid academic ground, what is next? Next year is going to be a pivotal one - will the pressure be on to win more?
The reason UC was invited to the Big East was mainly due to football.
The Big East did not need UC or for that matter Louisville for basketball.
But they certainly needed teams/schools to rebuild their football conference in the hope of maintaining BCS status. So they added Louisville, UC, and USF and it is hard to argue with the results.
First, Huggins was gone just as soon as WVU would have accepted him! If you don't believe that just ask KSU with the #1 recruting class coming in. Second, UC will be a top 5 Big East team NEXT YEAR! Third, the above commenters will not be satisfied with that.
Once again the Huggins faithful refuse to see the facts. Do you think Bill is making the facts up just to hurt Huggins? Coach Huggins was a year or two away from completely ruining this program. It was just a matter of time before UC was placed on serious probation. No post season, reduced scholarships and possibly thrown out of the Big East. Then no coach or recruit would have touched this University. I wish Huggy Bear all the best in West Virgina. Hopefully he will not take that program down the same road he was leading UC.
If you guys don't care about these kids as students, then go find a professional team to align your band wagon support for.
Bruce Pearl encountered an extremely bad Tennessee Basketball program. Look what he has done in 3 years. How many years do you give Cronin? Also, please be reminded, that the University President has created many other "bonehead" situations; especially academically and adminstratively. Why doesn't the BOT replace her? Leadership can be a GREAT virtue of a university president.The current president doesn't appear to have virtuous qualities.The APR situation could have been solved in other ways, besides exercising the "power" to fire someone.
Huggins ran the program into the ground with his terrible recruiting and off-court antics. He went to one final four in, what fourteen years as coach, yet some worship him? Crazy.
Thank god Mick came in and was able to bring the program back up.
Oh, and for being a 'minnow' in the Big East, UC finished 10th in it's second year and beat UL, WVU, SU, VU, and others. Hardly a minnow. And how did the football team do?
Objective facts do not lie. The APR for men's basketball for hte three years prior to Cronin's arrival was 838. That performance was in the botton 10%.
Everyone involved in the administration of the basketball program during those years is responsible. That includes Nancy Zimpher, Bob Goin, Mike Thomas, Andy Kennedy, and Bob Huggins.
Based on the story in the Enquirer, the rating for 2006-2007 was 977. Based on the numbers for the previous year, that will place UC in the top quintile for acedemic performance.
When you add to that the academic performance this year, with all five seniors on schedule to graduate by the end of summer, it is clear that the mission of recruiting student-athletes who will graduate is being met. The psople who deserve the credit for that: Mick Cronin, Mike Thomas, and Nancy Zimpher.
Everyone know that the firing of coach Huggins was not handled well. The basketball program has paid the price for that mis-handling. I agree that Nancy Zimpher and the Board of Trustees are to blame. At this point, that is moot. It's over. Done with. Get on with your life and deal with it.
The current coach believes academics matter. The results clearly indicate that commitment. I am not sure the former coach (not the interim coach) was ever all that committed to anything other than winning basketball games. The results pretty clearly indicate that, too.
Even if the success on the court never reaches where we were prior to 2005-2006, this program succeeds right now in the classroom. So, even if a coaching change is necessary, the time will not be "wasted."
And, for the people wondering about the patience of Indiana fans, Tom Crean is not being asked to rebuild a team both academically and athletically the way Mick Cronin was asked to.
IndyCat, you are correct. Tom Crean at IU has the added burden of the pending 1-2 year NCAA probration penalty. What is worst is the up to 1 year delay in announcing and starting the penalty. So that is a 2-3 year drag on recruiting.
Truly find it humorous that in many people's opinions that if you are not a big Mick Cronin fan then you are automatically a big Huggins fan. As though one naturally means the other.
Also, I have yet to speak with many people except for the twenty somethings that think that Mick is a great coach and is definitely going to get it all turned around. Apparently, experience leads those with some years behind them to not think Mick is the greatest coach ever, or to at least be cautious in their assessment of him.
Lastly, it's not just a matter of letting the Huggins dismissal disaster go. We are still greatly suffering from the mishandling by Zimpher and the UC Board of Trustees. Until, if and when, UC basketball is meaningful again, the anger and disappointment will likely never completely leave.
In the meantime, all you Mick Lovers continue to drink the 'Everything Going To Be Great' rhetoric in and keep on dreaming that Mick is the best coach ever.
We'll see two or three years from now. If he's all you think he is, then I'll happy admit I was wrong and you were right. Don't think it'll happen though.
Ah, to be 20 something again. Fact, this UC team has deeper talent than almost any I have seen in more than 50 years of observing. If they decide to play 40 minutes of hell they will be hell on wheels.
Bob, senility can be embarassing. i'm sorry for you.
Huggins turned down an offer from UWV in 2002. UC was rated #1 in the nation when X beat them and Andy McWilliams could stll announce games but i'm sure this UC team's talent is deeper?
Your lack of credibility deserves no further comment.
So, Bill, you are conceding that the program probably can't get back to where it was under Mick? Why, because he has to try harder academically and thus can't get the better players??
If he doesn't get the job done, nothing can be blamed except poor coaching and recruiting on his part.
And how do you blame Kennedy MORE than Zimpher for the situation? He wasn't the top guy in the program and didn't make the final calls on anything, yet you blame him more than the university president??
Kennedy's already turned Ole Miss to a BETTER than 20-win team, and although the situation wasn't UC's, it certainly wasn't good. So I think you're stretching with your comments yet again.
Boy, what a waste of ten minutes looking at this garbage. Why do you UC hacks still harp on Huggins.
The bottom line is that he is gone and the Bearcats suck because he is gone. Last time I checked they didn't give bids to the NCAA tournament to the school with the top 65 APR numbers. Maybe that's how the CBI picks their squads.
DG
Kennedy was ordered by Zimpher/Thomas not to recruit. Where was MT and the academic compliance officer for Z when they told Kennedy he had no future at UC? So Mohammad and White flunk out as could be expected.
Bill, go ahead and blame Kennedy, the soldier, for following the generals commands (MT and Z). You make no sense blaming Kennedy.
Bill,
Thanks for your story about the APR and what UC was facing.
I don't think most of us realized how bad the situation was with the NCAA. I know I didn't.
People can argue all day about who's mostly to blame. To me it doesn't matter much. What counts is where we go from here.
Nice to see the recent vast improvement in the APR numbers. Other schools have achieved both athletic and academic success. UC has done so in both football and baseball. Hopefully, basketball is next.
at 5:45 bob said...
"Ah, to be 20 something again. Fact, this UC team has deeper talent than almost any I have seen in more than 50 years of observing."
Really!? Wonder if the Big O and Jack Twyman feel that way. Or, for that matter, Kenyon Martin and Steve Logan. And numerous others.
Please remove the very rose-colored glasses and maybe take a closer look. Or, better yet, possibly ask anyone who knows anything at all about basketball. It certainly couldn't hurt your perception of UC basketball at all.
I like Andy Kennedy and enjoyed working with him. But I have to be honest. AK was the recruiting coordinator who, along with Huggins, brought in some of those players that put UC in this predicament. I don't fault him for not recruiting during his year as interim head coach, but I do think he should accept some of the blame for allowing White and Muhammamad to skate acadmically during that season.
Bob,
I never thought I would say this, but I completely agree with WLMNMW - this team has a lot of young talent, but the only player that would have seen the floor in Kenyon's senior year and Logan's senior year is Vaughn. Here is a breakdown of what I am talking about -
Point Guard -
Larry Davis vs. Satterfield ('99-00) or Logan (01-02) > THIS IS A NO BRAINER
Shooting Guard -
Vaughn vs. Logan/Johnson (99-00) or Stokes (01-02) > I take Vaughn over Stokes but not the combo of Lo and DJ
Small Forward -
Rashad Bishop vs. Pete Mickeal (99-00) or I-MAC (01-02) > NO BRAINER
Power Forward -
Mike Williams vs. Kenyon or Jamaal Davis > maybe Davis in a year, but never Kenyon
Center -
Biggie vs. Jermain Tate or Donald Little > in a few years hopefully Biggie, but defensively and for rebounding purposes, Tate and Little were strong
I could make comparisons all day with the current roster and some of Huggs' best teams and based on the level of experience with the current team, there isn't really a comparison. Hopefully in a few years that will change, but for the time being there is a lot of catching up to do.
Bill, you are correct that Huggins and AK share some of the responsibility. But you underplay the negative impact that Z put on recruiting by keeping a coach without providing a rollover contract renewal and making AK a lame duck. Z's decision making hurt 5+ years of UC recruiting under Huggins, AK and now MC. UC was/is forced to take what it can get now in recruits, risks and all.
Had Z just fired Huggins and brought in a new good coach/recruiter, UC would have only lost 1-2 years of recruiting.
Z cost us 3-5 years of extra poor recruiting results (beyond an expected 1-2 years with Huggins firing) by her indecisiveness and poor leadership, along with the BOT. So that is why UC has fallen off the national map in BB.
Gee, Prez, it's been nearly 20 years since I was a 20-something, and I think he can do it.
The priamry responsibility for the academic success of the athletes in the basketball program lies with the coaches. That means Bob Huggins and his staf, including Andy Kennedy and Frank Martin and whoever else was coaching during that time. Andy Kennedy gets the blame for the 2005-2006 year, when White and Muhammed were allowed to skip class after class.
Next, responsibility belongs to the Athletic Director(s): primarily Bob Goin, and to a lesser extent, Mike Thomas. Goin was clearly mailing it in, instead of properly supervising Huggins and Kennerdy to ensure they were doing their. Thomas was essentially stuck, since he didn't start until December 1, 2005. It's hard to make a change in mid-stream, and even harder to make a change in mid-stream after onme has already been made.
Does Nancy deserve some blame for the APR problems? She was the CEo of the University, so the buck ultimately stops with her. And while she made a decision that I think needed to be made, she made it at the wrong time.
But those issues are collateral to the issue of the APR and the academic progress of the basketball athletes. And the record is clear: the coaches didn't do one of their primary jobs, and deserve most of the blame for it. And they got fired for it.
If you want to continue to have a hissy fit about it, that's your privilege. But the vast majority of us are tired of hearing about it, and we would much rather talk about something that is remotely relevant.
As I stated earlier, this head coach obviously think academic are important. The fact that ALL his players are graduating on time is proof of that. The prior regime could never make that claim.
Will he be a better coach than Huggins? Who knows. The comparison is dfficult, since Huggins never had to compete at the level Cronin coaches at. And he was never forced to make sure his players went to class. We should have amuch better idea of that next year, when he should have a full complement of players that can compete in the Big East.
Bill - APR's importance does partially explain the mediocre results of Cronin's first two years. Next two yrs will determine whether or not Mick is up to coaching in BE.
The sorry graduation rate of UC BB players during Huggs tenure showed that he, the administration and most fans really didn't care one way or another about graduation rates as long as the Bearcats won.
Also don't remember you writing anything about the players not graduating at that time.
For some reason many UC fans seem to think it's impossible to have a winning team and players that graduate.
North Carolina and many other programs prove you can have both excellent athletes and good students.
Ms. Z. does bear some responsibility for BB mess, but she did the right thing.
we will see the real value of the apr the next couple of years. those who support apr better show up AT THE STADIUM in huge numbers if it is that important.
Maybe a debate team will break out during a time-out.
lololololololol
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